Let's Red Brick It! Cutting Through the Clutter with Donna McGeorge

In this high-energy episode Nicky's welcomes productivity powerhouse and best-selling author Donna McGeorge. Get ready to shift how you think about work, life, and results as they unpack the game-changing concept behind Donna's latest book, Red Brick Thinking™.

Donna shows us how removing, rather than adding, can unlock productivity, peace, and progress. From tackling meetings and admin overload to decluttering mindsets and business processes, she brings practical strategies that you can implement immediately. No fluff. Just sharp insights and simple shifts with a big impact.

🔥 Topics covered:

• The Red Brick Thinking™ framework: what it is and why it matters now more than ever
• The hidden cost of "more" in business and life
• How subtraction leads to smart growth
• Spotting the signs of burnout, urgency, and unnecessary noise
• Real-life ways to “red brick” your calendar, meetings, habits, and systems

Whether you're a business owner, leader, or high performer, this episode will have you asking: What can I red brick today?

📕 Grab your copy of Red Brick Thinking here!

Connect with Donna at www.donnamcgeorge.com

Learn more about Nicky at nickymiklos.com

Grab The Growth Code™ here!

Get your a copy of Healthy Hustle: The New Blueprint to Thrive in Business & Life at www.healthyhustle.com.au

Connect: LinkedIn | Instagram

Contact: 0403 191 404 | hello@nickymiklos.com

Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:06

Hello everybody, and welcome to this week's episode, where we have the fabulous Donna McGeorge joining us. This podcast episode is filled to the brim with so many tips and tools that you can implement right away to create space in your day, in your business, whilst still getting results. From boardrooms to auditoriums, Donna McGeorge sparks a practical change that lasts. And this podcast episode was no exception. Donna is a sought-after international speaker and best-selling author of 15 books, including the 25-minute meeting, first two hours, one day refund. I've mentioned ChatGPT Revolution previously, and her latest book, Red Brick Thinking. Now, Donna is all about helping leaders, business owners, teams to cut through the noise, to create space and capacity for what is most important in their lives. Now she also has the cred to really back up her work. She's been featured in Harvard Business Review Forbes, the Fast Company, and she's been on national TV. So whether it's working with 20 leaders behind closed doors or 2,000 people in a packed auditorium, Donna is all about delivering high-energy sessions filled with sharp insights, relatable stories, and immediately actionable ideas. It's no jargon, no fluff, and nobody's gonna be checking their emails while Donna is speaking. And that is absolutely what she brought to this podcast episode. I'm gonna let you dive straight in. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to this awesome episode. I am very excited because we have the one, the only, Donna McGeorge. Cube cheering in the background. And I as before we hit record, we thought shit, we better hit record pretty quickly because we were going straight into awesome conversation. But we were celebrating the fact that you are the first guest uh for season four Smart Business Growth Podcast. So thank you for joining me.

Speaker: 2:31

Oh I'm honoured, lady. I'm so honoured to be here. And any chance to have a yak with you is always uh that makes always any good day a good day, if I can do that.

Speaker 2: 2:41

The feeling is absolutely mutual. And uh I'm so excited to be able to tap into your smarts, particularly around this little beauty. Oh my god, look at that.

Speaker: 2:53

Okay, you in. I did have someone else show me a few tags in their book, but that's the most amount of tags. Oh, what's the book I had tagged? Um, I think it was uh Tools of Titans, I think, by Tim Ferris. And and I it had three sections. One was productivity, which of course I'm interested in, one was making money and one was health. And the productivity of making money, so many tags. Not one in the health one. I skipped that bit. I skipped the whole bit.

Speaker 2: 3:22

What about that many tags? This is awesome because it's so well-rounded and I'm completely obsessed. And for those of you who are listening and not watching the YouTube video, you're probably thinking, what the heck is going on? I am holding up Donna McGeorge's brand new book, Red Brick Thinking. Actually, I think I'm an early reader. This is officially at time of recording. Has it been released? I think I'm waiting for more copies. Yeah.

Speaker: 3:44

There was a wee delay of books coming out of um, I don't know, they're on a sly boat from China or something. And so there was a delay with that. It was due to be released on the 29th of October. So whenever this goes to press. Um now it's probably a lot more like uh about the 8th or 9th of November. And so there are very few. They are in fact as scarce as hens teeth, those books. You and you not only are you holding one in your hot little hand, you've clearly read it and you've tagged the sh out of it.

Speaker 2: 4:17

Like, I just love it. Oh, seriously, this is one of those books that I will definitely go back to. And I'm not gonna lie, I had a moment as I was reading it going, ooh, I'm one of the first to read this. Oh, hello, uh, core need for significance fulfilled right there. I love it. So this book, Red Brick Thinking, I also have a beautiful big red box uh here that it came in with lots of goodies. So I appreciate that so much. Thank you. Uh and by the time people are listening to this, it will be so close to, if not already, um, ready for you to buy. So even if it's before release out, make sure you get in and um order a pre-copy. Now, we're gonna talk today about why this matters. And that's that's the that's the first question I want to start with you, um, Donna, is just to really get an understanding of first, what actually is red brick thinking? To give some context for our listeners and our viewers.

Speaker: 5:08

All right, so for those who are watching, here's a little demo. So years ago, I I wrote a book called Uh The One Day Refund, and that was uh several years ago. And when I was researching for that book, I came across this study um out of the University of Virginia, I think. Um, and it talked about the idea that when we're presented with problems, we tend to have what's called addition bias. So we add things all the time. And so I started playing around with this little bridge, and you can see it's a little bridge that's a bit crooked, so one side's higher than the other. And I started saying to people, how would you fix this little bridge? So it's a little, for those of you who are listening, it's a little Lego bridge, one leg is higher than the other. And and I would give people extra bricks, and 90% of people would start whacking on bricks like they were auditioning for the block, right? They would just start sticking bricks on all over the place. Very few people thought to remove a red brick. And so that's where the idea of red brick thinking came about. So this addition bias that we have. So when we're presented with a problem, we immediately go to maybe I need another product, maybe I need another service, maybe we need to even the phrase add more value. So more, more, more. Whereas the question we could ask is, how do we take away something that makes it easier? Is there some friction we could remove? Are there some steps in our customer experience that are not that great? Is there some things that we're doing? You know, you talk about healthy hustle as part of what you do. Are there some things that are unhealthy hustle that we could remove? Or if we want to have healthy hustle, what are we going to stop doing uh to enable that? And that's it's kind of where it came about. Uh, and that's where the little red brick idea came about.

Speaker 2: 6:58

I love it. And even as I was reading the book, I went on a journey. So, you know, I'm a big fan of your work, big fan of your books, everything that you do. And still, as I was reading it at the beginning, I was like, okay, like I really am so here for this message and everything makes sense. How do we do it? And I feel like by the end, there was a bit more clarity for me around actually how can we do it? And we'll we'll dive into that a little bit as well, I think, you know, in this podcast episode. We won't give too much away because everyone, you've got to go get the book. Uh yeah. So, what led you to really kind of bring that concept to what it is today? Really, because I also hear, see, feel this is this feels like a culmination of all of the work that you've done. You know, I can I see bits of, and we've talked before around some of your other books are amazing tip books and really practical, actionable. And so is this, but in a different way. So, why do you think it was important to bring red brick thinking to the world in this modern day landscape?

Speaker: 8:01

Wow, okay, there's lots going on in there. So, first of all, um I'll put myself, you know, rather unashamedly in the same class as Stephen King. I'm a huge fan of Stephen King. He writes a book every year, he's he's just a genius. Um and he's got a very famous series. If you're a King fan, you know about the Dark Tower series. And he says that his every book he's ever written at some level is part of this Dark Tower universe. And so I actually think everything I've ever written before was part of the red brick thinking universe. And so I wrote books about 25-minute meetings, asking people to red brick 35 minutes out of their day. I wrote about the first two hours, asking people to red brick crap out of their morning so that they could use that really great time to focus on things that matter. And then the one-day refund, of course, was around how do we remove 15% uh of our of our, I don't know, waste and clutter to create space and a buffer for ourselves. Prior to that, I always used to, I mean, I wrote books about how to train trainers and presentation skills. And my very first book was about removing PowerPoint. So it was around don't use PowerPoint, use flipchats or whiteboards or something like that. So even way back then when I didn't even hadn't even really thought about red brick thinking or even productivity, I was still looking at how do you streamline, how do you make it easier for for yourself and for others to kind of get with whatever program you're getting with. And so why I think it's important now is I mean, gosh, it's getting towards the end of the year. We're coming up to the Christmas frenzy, if you will. And so not only will we all be out madly shopping for everyone for Christmas, which is going to just add more stuff to everyone's world. And it's I'm not a Grinch, I'm all good with Christmas cheer. And so we'll all get a bunch of Christmas presents. And then hot on the tail of that, bang on the tail of that, is the Boxing Day sales, which we then accumulated a whole bunch more stuff. And there's there's some research that says by about um it's about it's about six weeks afterwards, so Valentine's Day, by about Valentine's Day, it's what like around that time of the busiest times at the dump, as people then have to start shedding all the stuff because they bought all the stuff. And so I think it's important because we are in a more epidemic, we just buy more stuff all the time. And we have burnout is a thing, right? People are overwhelmed, overworked, over it, over-stimulated. So I reckon taking a pause and going, what could I take away? I reckon the timing's really right for this.

Speaker 2: 10:44

I couldn't agree more. And that's another thing I really love about the red brick revolution, is that it really is across all areas of life. So as I'm reading this, I'm thinking, right, how can I apply it? What can I share with my clients? Which, of course, clients that are listening and watching, you'll obviously be getting a copy of this from me. And what can I, you know, what can we work on together? But then even I started looking around going, right, I've got to go through that basket that I've been avoiding going throughing to remove that clutter, because that's something even that I remember hearing you say ages ago around it is it's that clutter of mind, space, energy, and the stuff that's in our house really has an impact around that.

Speaker: 11:25

Um that's not new thinking, right? Mari Kondo's been making trap tons of money around that idea for a really long time. And I think at some level we all do, but but we agree that yes, there's not many people that say, no, I want to hang on to my clutter. Well, probably have a pathology around that. But anywho, um different podcasts, a whole different topic for a whole different conversation. Um but what we typically do is we wait for a crisis. We wait for our wardrobe to be overwhelmed, we wait for the guest that suddenly needs to use our guest room and there's no room in there. We wait until our garage is just bulging at the seams, and then we go, we should do something about this. So red brick thinking suggests that we should be thinking about this all the time. So I'm I'm organizing an event at the moment, and once a week we get together with the crew that is putting it together and and we do our run through our run sheet and we run through all the bits and pieces that we're doing. And every single time we red brick something. You know, whether it's an idea, someone says, Oh no, why don't we do this? And we talk about it for a bit, we go, nah, nah, let's just red brick that, or we go, here's what we had planned to do, but suddenly our agenda's looking a little tight. What can we red brick out of this? And so it's now become part of how we speak, how we talk, how we think. And I think that's the real power of it. Don't wait, you know, if you're a leader, don't wait till your team's drowning. You know, on your next planning day, what are our priorities and what are we going to stop doing to make space for that?

unknown: 12:59

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:00

Yeah, I love that. And also the distinction between little R and big R. So again, I think that's what's really, you know, I find it's really, really interesting and timely. So, and you would be very proud of me, Donna, because today, my lunch, like I like to catch up with my mom online for lunch every now and then. Um, and it finished it about half an hour earlier. And so I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna fill that space up. Donna, we'd be so proud. Yes, don't fill it up if there's a cancellation. Um, and so instead I laid in the hammock and I actually stopped and I realized, and I actually did the maths, I have been, apart from sleeping, I have been non-going non-stop going for the last 42 hours. Now, some of that is awesome stuff, riding my bike, walking the dogs, yoga, dance, amazing work, all of that. But I hadn't paused and it really got me to reflect because I I'm not used to that feeling these days. I'm actually really good with the micro moments, the space that we've talked about. Um, but it actually was really interesting to reflect because I realized a couple of things. One, I haven't felt like that for a while. So, you know, alarm, alarm, make sure that I don't fall into that habit. But two, I think a big thing that stops people from um red bricking or creating space or not filling up is this fear of what's gonna happen if I stop. The feeling I had was my energy started to drop. And I was like, oh no, if I keep going, my energy will stay good. Or, you know, it's that busy we get caught in that busy sort of trap. So again, I think it's really amazing timing, and we know the burnout stats, and and you know, we talk about hustle. Everyone, there's a whole chapter on unhealthy, how to spot unhealthy hustle, and that's a big uh brick that we can read brick. But what's your thoughts on this whole factor around a big barrier is fear around stopping for for all the multitudes of reasons? What's your thoughts on and what would you say to somebody that can resonate with this this conversation?

Speaker: 14:55

So, you know, the idea of first of all, people worry about stopping. You just named one that was really interesting. If I don't maintain this energy, if I don't keep going, what if it runs out? Now, first of all, that's such a false economy, right? Because you can't maintain it until you rest, you know? And for many of the things. Right? Yes, well, of course it's gonna drop much sooner if you don't take a break. Yes. And you know, so getting a good night's sleep goes part way towards doing that. But um, one of the things I talked about in one of my other books was something called the 15% rule, which is instead of being 100% on 100% of the time, we try to operate the whole day at about 85%. And so it's it's very hard to say how specifically do you do that. Now it's easy in your calendar, you just block out an extra hour in your day so you're not, you know, back to back meetings. But for me, it's like, you know, it's nearly a made-up thing. You know, for me to operate at 85% today, it means that I don't have back-to-back meetings all day. It means that I, my to-do list isn't massive, it's just I've got a couple of things I want to get done. It means I can have morning tea. I've got a bit of a ritual where I have morning tea with Steve and then we have lunch later on. And so these are the things that, um, when things get a bit crazy, they're the first things that start to fall out. And so I try really hard not to do that. So I just don't try to operate at 85% capacity. That's the first thing. Your energy is going to run away and deplete much quicker if you don't take a break. The second thing is our tolerance for downtime and boredom is really low. And so there I just read a study about this recently where there's a direct correlation between the fact that we just don't allow ourselves to be bored anymore and we constantly look for stimulation, whether it's phones or computers or television or whatever we're using for stimulation. So we and so we don't ever allow ourselves to get bored. And there's a correlation between that and the increase in mental health issues. And part of it is because when we get bored, quote unquote, in the olden days, when we before we had all these devices, and we might find ourselves sitting, swinging in a chair or like sitting in the back garden or whatever we might be doing, we'd ask ourselves some of the harder questions in life. So everything from what am I going to have for lunch today, through to what is the meaning of life? And we we gave ourselves space to talk to ourselves in our heads. Whereas we just don't do that anymore. We go, go, go, on, on, on. In fact, one study showed that people would rather give themselves a mild electric shock than be alone with their thoughts. Oh, that makes sense. And so this idea that we're constantly on our devices and doing things all the time, and we never have to have moments of boredom. I think that's the real thing. So I've been trying to train myself now. I'm I'm on this path for that. Who was the guy? I mentioned him in my book, I'm just having a mental blank now. The guy that um went and did an absolute uh detox. He went into a cabin in the mountains. Yeah, went and did uh detox in the mountains, and he said the first few days he he was going nuts. And I reckon that would be like when you do a sugar detox. Yeah. If you go a bit crazy because it's an addiction that you're detoxing. His mind started talking to him in the best possible way. I'm I'm I haven't done it yet, but I really am thinking about doing that.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Actually, I've been thinking about doing one of those silent retreats, you know, 10 days. Ooh. Um, yeah, I'm and he also talks about there's some interesting stats around it's it's the equivalent, you know, back in the day we used to have a newspaper daily or weekly. And these days it's the equivalent of having hundreds of newspapers that is being, you know, forced. And there was an interesting, I don't, oh, that's not in my marked page. It probably is somewhere. But um it was you mentioned something, it it's the equivalent of maybe 16 full-length movies that we are consuming every day. I mean, we're not wired for this. So it's no wonder that we get ourselves caught in this whirlwind and the chaos. And I guess the big message I really, really, really want our listeners, our viewers to take away is, you know, really we're we're kind of there's two layers of this that I see. There's the deep work, you know, understanding why can't I be with myself or why do I have to keep filling in? I remember when I um used to work in corporate, I would have to ring jewels on my way home every single day because I just could not handle the silence. Now I have come a very far away from there. But that's the deeper work around, you know, what does that look like? Or detoxing or disconnecting. But the thing I really want everyone to take away from this is yes, that part is there. And there's the smaller, simpler, easier things that you can get started. And that's why um throughout the book, but even at the end, um, there's a piece that you talked about around, you know, red brick thinking doesn't require authorization. Can you explain what that means? Because I actually think that's hugely impactful and really important for people to consider and take away. Do you mean that, you know, you don't need permission for it? Is that the is that the one needs perfect and the reason that I say that is um some of the the clients that I work with, it might be that they're not the business owner, but they're the leader. And they're caught in this environment that is dictated by the business owner or a senior leader. And so they feel they don't have any control or that it has to be a big, huge conversation to create some change, or like you talk about in the book, a 20-page business plan. But actually, how do we give ourselves permission if we're stuck in an environment that we don't have total control or influence over?

Speaker: 20:28

Okay, so if your listeners right now are listening, here you go, permission from your auntie Donna, you have permission. Done. Tick, we've done that. So I reckon you you you touched on small R red bricks before, small R and big R red bricks. And I think straight up it's much easier for any individual to go with the little R red bricks or the small R red bricks. And these are just little things. Um, you know, it can be everything from at home. Everyone's got that box of cables that they're keeping just in case for their Nokia phones that they haven't used since John Howard was prime minister. And they're never going to use again, but they keep them just in case. Or they can't remember what the cable was for, so they keep it just in case. I've got cables for Kindles when they first came out. I don't even need them anymore, right? Yeah. Relatable. And it could even be your linen closet or your wardrobe or like there's small things that you have control over. You know, when we were moving, my parents, um my parents have two beds. They've got their bed and a guest bed. Um, and they had 19 sets of sheets. Oh, wow. Who needs that? And I kept saying for mum, what do you need 19 sets of sheets for? Just in case. I said, just in case what? Under what circumstances are you gonna burn through 19 sets of sheets? Because, oh, we might have visitors. Where are they gonna sleep? We don't need 19 sheets of sheets, right? Anywho, so this idea of just in case some of the ones that we carry for ourselves. So we hang on to email folders and notebooks and notes and history we hang on to just in case I might need to somehow go back and look at emails from 34 years ago to prove that someone lied in a meeting or something like that, right? So there's those small ones, and these are ones where you look at your diary and you go, what meetings aren't adding any value? And so, do first of all, it's kind of like do it for yourself first. What are the little ones you can get rid of? And also, sometimes we put ourselves, I think it it feels like a big R red brick, but it kind of is a little one. What pressure can you take off yourself? What kind of rules and rituals and routines have you set up for yourself that no one knows about, no one cares about, and wouldn't even notice if you stopped doing it? Like, do you have a I've got to get to inbox zero by four o'clock on a Friday? No one knows or cares about that. But you put it under put yourself under pressure. Because the big the the getting rid of the little ones makes space for you to think about the big ones. And sometimes the big ones might need a bit more consensus or discussion, like a zombie project that's just wandering around an organization sucking people's brains out, that we might need to stop or a a group meeting. I mean, I remember Shopify, everyone came back from leave after their summer break, and Shopify uh had deleted every recurring meeting out of everyone's diaries. Now, that's a pretty big uh red brick. That's a very big R. And you know, you know, nearly, you know, 12 months down the track from that, what's happened is only about 20 to 30 percent of those meetings went back in, which frees up so I have time for people. And so there might be things as leaders, there there could be things you could red brick for your team. You know, the two-hour weekly whip meeting that no one cares about and no one has their camera on because they're busy doing their real work while the meeting's going on. So I'm gonna say start with the little R1s first. I am gonna say your personal life is a lot easier to red brick than your professional life, but it has an awesome knock-on effect around that. Um, and then make space to start really thinking about and analyzing the big R1s.

Speaker 2: 24:12

Yeah, I love that. And so it's this whole piece, it's the 1%, isn't it? And and a quote to quote Donna McGeorge, uh, I love how you there's a line that you had in the book, leaders caught in constant urgency don't lead, they react. And some examples that you have around, so that's that urgency piece. And you know, I love how you break down the types of there's cultural, stra uh structural, um, emotional red bricks that we can remove. And, you know, that's from urgency. And and even I literally wrote in my book, boom, exclamation mark. Um, when you talk about some of the noise red bricks, okay, ready, ready, everybody? Can you relate to this? A detailed report delivered on time that no one reads, a well-attended meeting that doesn't move anything forward, or a dashboard that's packed with metrics that's obscure that obscure what matters most. Right? Like we do this work, and it's to your point, Donna. I mean, you wrote this, so it's all your point. Um, to your point about um sometimes people don't even know. And I love that, you know, in terms of the you don't need permission. A quick interruption to this podcast episode. I'm really curious, do you want to close more sales in less time? If the answer is yes, which I hope that it is, then you need to get your hands on the growth code. It is going to give you three proven frameworks and tools that will help future-proof your business and scale with clarity. All you have to do is head down to the show notes and click the link below. You can make changes and sometimes people don't even realize. But how many meetings are you rocking up to, or how many reports are you writing? Or, you know, these examples are so relatable as key things or a version of that we can actually challenge and create a pause. So, um, by noise as well, of course, we're not talking the radio or, you know, this awesome podcast episode, but are there any other insights around particularly, I think noise and urgency can really drag down a lot of leaders? Um, do you find that there's key red bricks that would stand out? Also thinking a lot of what we talk about on the podcast is smart business growth sales. So, what do you think? Is it noise, urgency? What do you think are the red bricks that are most commonly holding people back or leaders back in this space?

Speaker: 26:35

Okay, so I'd ask your team, because here's one one leader that I worked with uh had just joined a team and the they they kept saying and complaining about how busy they were. They're busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. But particular projects, deadlines, targets, we're not getting met. And his question is, what are they busy doing if it's not achieving the things that they're meant to be achieving? And so I guarantee if you spoke to your sales team and said, what's stopping you from making more sales, they're gonna say admin. And now I know there's some admin we have to do. I know there is. Um, but I'd be saying to them, what's the kind of admin that's getting in the way of you doing your actual job? There'll be admin, there'll be meetings, they'll tell you. So I don't know everyone's business well enough to be that specific about it. So the two piece places you want to look at is one, when you talk to people, when do they, when does the energy drop, their shoulders drop, they're like they just lose interest in stuff. What's the you know, what's the drag? You know, they they drag their their feet getting stuff to you. There, there are a few signs. And the second one is the person who's been in your organization or team the shortest. So if they've been there, usually about three months is a good time to do it. Go and ask them, what are they bewildered by? All for because they're the ones who are brand new in your business and they're trying really hard to be good and do all the good things, and then there's gonna be stuff that you get them to do, and they're gonna be like, I wonder why we do this. They're not judgy or anything like that, but they're bewildered about it. So ask them what they're bewildered about, and then sit on your hands to prevent yourselves from defending whatever it is they're bewildered by. So they might, I'm bewildered by, you know, the slide deck we have to put together for our weekly whip meeting, that people only ever really pay attention to the the second slide of the 10. Why do we have to do the other 10 again? And so you're gonna be tempted to say, either because that's how we've always done it, or that data's really important, or something. Um, so when they tell you the thing they're bewildered by, just go, thank you. I'll have a think about that. Right? Yeah. Because part of the problem with identifying red bricks is the reason we did it in the first place was probably really valid and really legit. But here we are, five years later, the world has moved on and life is different, and maybe that original reason doesn't exist anymore, or there's other technologies or other ways in which we're getting the information that we don't need that. And so the the process for figuring out Red Bricks is to spot them, and they're the clues I've just given you. Look for drops in energy in yourself as well. You know, talk to your person that's been there three months, question them why do we have them in the first place? What was the outcome we were trying to achieve? Um, then now, unless you are in a life or death situation, most of us aren't, unless you aren't, so you can just just stop them. Just stop them. No one's gonna die, just stop. Don't park it, don't just stop it and see what happens. Pay attention to what happens, and then I want you to feel it for yourself and watch others feel the relief of not having to do that thing anymore. And then spread the word. Start saying to people hey, we've just had this nice experience of red bricking this, everyone should be doing it. So, really, those. First two are the critical ones. So spot them and question them. And then stop it. And then stop. Spot question. You know, and and I reckon there's so many. There's a there's a story in the book about um a UK company that makes matches, Swan Vestors, and they most matchboxes had two striking strips. It was very common, it was common practice back in the day. And then one day someone said, Well, what would happen if we removed one of the striking strips? And you know, and so they had a bit of a think about that and went, okay. And so they did. No fanfare, no announcement, no big market research moment, no chicken with our clients. They just removed one strip. And you know what? Nothing happened. No one even noticed. People could still light their matches. No one noticed. And I reckon there's heaps of stuff in your worlds that no one would notice if you stopped.

Speaker 2: 30:56

So stop. Definitely. Okay, so any tips on spotting it? Because that's the that's kind of the trigger point to kick it to kick started. What should people be looking for? Um, you mentioned a couple, like drop in energy um for yourself or for others. Are there any other kind of obvious places to start looking?

Speaker: 31:15

Your calendars, straight up. Um, yep, you're you're already having way too many meetings than you should, and you're spending at least twice as long as you should be in each of them. So straight up you want to be looking at that. Um, I would also say any time where it's it's because it's always been done that way. Right. So anytime that's the answer. So if you're training someone and they say, How can we do it this way? Well, it's always been done that way. So um, any processes if you had for probably more than three or four years, technology is moving so fast and the world is moving so fast that if you're still doing something the same way you did it three or four years ago, that's that could be a red brick hiding in plain sight. Um, where I'd go asking your customers, where are we hard to do business with? What, you know, when people get onto our website, if they're trying to order something or they're trying to talk to one of our salespeople, where do we make it hard for them? What do they complain a lot about? Where do we get feedback about things that don't quite work the way we'd like them to? So you're gonna probably have to go and ask questions of people because it's gonna be different for so many. But for me, I I I spot it with my energy just in my own, like what when I look at my calendar for the week and I look at what's coming up and who I'm hanging out with and what I'm doing, when you know, what's the difference between, oh, I'm so looking forward to that too? Oh, crap, forgot about that. Yeah, right. And so the old crap forgot about that. Now, sometimes we've got to do things we don't like. No question, right? I'm not suggesting that everything's all hunky dory and roses and Pollyanna-ish and blah, blah, blah. But they are the ones that I do at least quit. I spot that and then I question it and go, now, how come that's in my diary in the first place? Why did I say yes to it? What was my intention? Fine, I'll suck it up and do it. Yep. Or uh note to self, don't do that again. Don't ever do that again.

Speaker 2: 33:06

And that's also where that question around if I'm saying yes to this, what am I saying no to? And is it worth it? Correct. Is it worth it? Um, which is really good because sometimes we have to, you're right, we do have to do those things. But the point here is the intentionality behind it. It's not just getting caught up and swept up into, you know, in this again, it's the chaos and the whirlwind without intentional, deliberate, conscious um thought around I'm choosing to do this behavior. And and I think the other thing, you know, um, if you're listening, watching, it's about again, start with the little R's because you will be amazed at, as Donna said, you start to get this feeling of space. You start to, you know, I had that 20 minutes in the hammock. I a hundred percent have more energy now than if I would have gone, right, I've got 20 minutes. What am I gonna do? I've got to fill it with something else. So I'm like, oh yeah, I feel pretty good. I may have fallen asleep a couple of times as well. Nothing wrong with the day nap, people. Um, so it's those little things, then we start to have different energy, and people will notice that as well around you.

Speaker: 34:08

Absolutely, and they'll start to take their cue from you, right? So I'm gonna say, don't overcomplicate this. Don't go for, you know, the biggest red brick you can find. It's the little ones, it's little things like tidying up your disc. Um, my sister did a campaign, I think it was some challenge she signed up for, which was 40 bags in 40 days. And the bags could be any size, but she had to remove things from her house. So it could be a little Ziploc bag of old medications or something like that from her box, or it could be just one lipstick that she didn't uh use anymore, or it could have been a bag of clothes or you know, out-of-date stuff in your pantry, stuff like that. So I reckon I'm I'm just looking around my desk right now, thinking, I reckon I could probably have a crack at 40. Even I, you just accumulate stuff over time, and I don't want to wait until I'm moving house or it gets really overwhelming. It's like, what, you know, what are half a dozen things I could get rid of today, just from my working environment, that will create space for me. Yeah. Because you're absolutely right. You said it earlier. There's a definite relationship to physical space and then our mental capacity.

Speaker 2: 35:20

Right. Well, I know exactly what I'm doing after this podcast episode because I'm looking around being, I've got it, I've got just a few delightful things around me right now. And and I even love, you know, again, we're talking this has a positive, positive effect on mental health, on energy, on environmental impact. You know, you we talk about Boxing Day sales and and all of all of that clutter that we're creating, as well as helping you really um create efficiencies and get those business results that you want. And absolutely, it's so related to healthy hustle in that, yeah, we want to get out there, we want to do the work, but we need to be deliberate and intentional about it and have that holy with you. The right work that will get that will move the dial quicker, not understand.

Speaker: 36:03

And I know because this is just the truth for everyone I know, it's really some new awesome initiative that's gonna suddenly bring home the bacon. It's always doing something we've always done, but better. So not adding something new, just doing the thing that for some reason maybe we're a bit bored with it or whatever, but it's always the simple thing done consistently well that gets the best results. It's not some, as you say, some new CRM or some new um, you know, fancy spreadsheet that can do a whole bunch of data analysis. It's rarely that it's the conversations we have. So I'm I'm really I'm so with you on this, that there's an absolute direct correlation to creating space to think and breathe and then getting results. It's there's no question that that happens.

Speaker 2: 37:01

Absolutely. Even an example that comes to mind is oh my goodness, so many sales people and sales leaders get caught on collateral, sales collateral. Actually, the collateral is not doing the selling, it can complement it, but as you say, it's that conversation, it's that connection. And um, let's red brick it, I truly believe has to become a mantra. Um, I know certainly I'm gonna bring this into my coaching and my conversations around what can we actually remove. And I think even understanding the whole psychology behind, and you talk about this in the book um earlier on, and we're gone all over the place, Donna. We've gone to the back, to the front, to the middle, to the back, you know, we we got this.

Speaker: 37:36

Well, we all saw the those of you who are watching, we all saw the stickers everywhere.

Speaker 2: 37:40

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I actually think is kind of ironic because I definitely added more to the book with a bit of an overwhelming number of tabs. But anyway, um it's good because I'll go back to my key points. Uh, yeah, so this whole piece around, you know, understanding why do we innately go to adding more? Because that is actually our first instinct. Our first instinct is not to remove. Do you want to just share a little bit about why do we exactly goes back to being cave people, right?

Speaker: 38:14

So when we were in hunter-gatherer communities, the more people that were contributing, the more food and the more preparation that we had, and the more we had stored ready for long, cold, horrible winters or whatever, the more likely we were to survive. So the safety and numbers thing was very real. And so, because so that this idea of accumulation is certainly not a new one. My my question that I want everyone to ask is what specifically are you accumulating and why? And so is it just so we it it's so ingrained into us to comfort eat and to comfort shop and to comfort consume. So I get it's not easy. And so it's just constantly asking the question: do I really need that? Is this really gonna solve my problem for me? Is this going to improve my world the way I hope? Or is there something we already have or something we could take away? And that would just make it so much better. So we are kind of resisting nature a little bit here. Um that and I mean, we are bombarded daily on social media about how to have more, be more, do more, you know, right from the the, I call them the productivity bros who are up at four in the morning so you can get more done in your day, you know, through to the retailers, no disrespect, who are wanting us to buy their products and and that we'll be better people if only we have this particular mouse. And so even though I've got a perfectly good mouse, this is the one that I need to go out and buy. So now I have another mouse. And I haven't thrown away the other two just in case.

Speaker 2: 39:57

Yes, true, so true. So I are you you just made me realise um I was a productivity bro uh over the last couple of days, and I do not recommend it. Um back to being my like space, you know, creating Nikki self. Um and the other interesting um perspective around this that you talk about is that we're rewarded, you know, creativity and innovation up until this point, when we think about that, we think about creating something new, um, adding, and again, it's that more. And so I really, you know, I I take on and I hear the challenge that you are putting out there from the book around, well, what if innovation and creativity we equally look at? Hold up, like you say, do we need to add or could we actually red break and take something about it? Right? Sorry, I get very excited about this.

Speaker: 40:44

Right, no one gets employee of the month award from saying, let's stop something or let's kill a project, right? Yes, having said that, most design thinking involves subtraction. Um, in fact, most creativity, the simplicity of anything comes from what we stop doing or what we remove. I mean, the original Red Bricker was Michelangelo, I removed the bits that weren't David, right? So when I was researching for this book and I was looking at design thinking, it's so often people um in design, and they're like really smart, clever people, take things away. And they have we get the least amount of moving parts, the least amount of surfaces, the least amount of um you know, manufacturing required to create the thing, that's what they're aiming for. And yet for the rest of us, it's almost like we go, surely it can't be that simple. Right? In fact, we've been so conditioned that addition or more is better, that when when you know, when someone does suggest something overly simplistic, we really question it because we're like, oh, surely it can't be that easy, right? Yeah, and so we're doubtful of it. Um, so there is a little bit of mindset and conditioning to play around with with this.

Speaker 2: 42:04

So we've got the mind setting and and the challenging our unconscious beliefs, as well as there is that instinctual factor. And I think that's really important to mention because uh, you know, things can be simple but not always easy. So if you're finding that you're wanting to have a go and you have a crack, but then you fall back into old behaviors, be kind with yourself. Like it's cool. This is a new um pattern, a behavior, the habit that you're wanting to create. So, you know, we are humans, but it's also equally as important to make sure that we're focusing on these areas in our business and in our life. Um honestly, Donna, I feel like we could, well, I got lots of tabs, so we could just be talking forever about this. But if there was one thing, actually, before I get to that question, when when people do fall back into a pattern, so you know, we go, we're creating a new habit, we've talked about the reasons why um it can be, you know, a little bit more challenging if we're not consciously thinking about it. What's your suggestion for people to do to make sure that these new habits stick?

Speaker: 43:03

Keep it simple and do one at a time. Yeah. Right? Often when you read a book like this one, I talk about the red cultural red bricks and structural red bricks and emotional red bricks. And today I was writing an article for someone else and I thought, gosh, there probably could have been a section on operational red bricks as well. Right? Because it's a little bit more tactical than maybe some of the others, but yeah, there's definitely operational red bricks that exist. And so the temptation is so in the book I I refer to 15 different types of red bricks. And so you read the book and you go, that's it. I'm gonna remove one of each, right? No, no, no, no, no. In fact, I I often say, people, read it, read one red brick at a time and ponder it. Because not every red brick, you might be okay with it. Maybe you're really good at saying no to family commitments and obligations, so you don't need to worry about that one. Or maybe you're really good at your meetings and your calendar and you don't need to worry about looking at some of those kinds of ones. And so I would say, pick one, and I'd even go, this is because I'm a wee bit lazy myself, um, I'd even say pick one that's a bit easy to do first. And so um when I wrote the 25-minute meeting, I I said to people, there's a really simple thing you can put in every meeting request, which is by the end of this meeting, it would be great if, and so, and finish the sentence. And so everyone then knows what the meeting's about, what the meeting's for, blah, blah, blah. And it helps you make a decision about whether you go or not. So the so I'm in a state is for something as simple as meetings, A, do that for all the ones you're sending out. But every meeting request you get, ask people to finish that sentence for you so that you know whether you need to show up or not. Because I reckon, I reckon there's 40% of your meetings right now you could probably get rid of. So start with something small, like questioning your meetings or how you're spending your time.

Speaker 2: 44:53

I love that because there are, I know for me, the two that really, the two bricks that really stood out was the complexity brick and the overcommitment brick. So they're the two that I but I'll pick one. Damn it, how do you pick one? Um, you know, but this is it, we've got to be really, we have to actually learn to be more decisive as well about what we choose to focus on.

Speaker: 45:11

Um I'd even say decisive and discerning. Right. And so um I'm fairly disciplined, so I can, I'm, I'm fairly good at saying I'm just not gonna do that anymore, and I just don't do it. Um, but I'm very discerning about where I spend my time and energy and effort because I know I don't get to lie in a hammock for half an hour every day. Not that you do, but you get the idea. Um, I do really am very conscious of where I'm spending this incredible resource and somewhat limited resource that I have.

Speaker 2: 45:44

It's so true. I mean, even if we think about the Oliver Berkman quote, you know, we have 8,000 weeks on this earth, how are we gonna live them best? Uh, you know, and managing energy is so important around this as well. And, you know, a lot of the conversation I have is around action with purpose and return on effort and managing your energy in between. So this is such a beautiful way to really bring that to life. And I know that it's gonna have a huge impact on so many people, individuals, teams, businesses. You know, again, this is gonna help you be a healthier, happier human and to get some really kick-ass, awesome rocking business results. So, are there any final thoughts, if there was one message that you wanted to leave with um the business owners, the leaders that are listening, anybody that has tuned in for this episode, what would that be?

Speaker: 46:33

Every time you remove a red brick, you're doing something that your future self will thank you for. And so if you're thinking, what could it be? Maybe, I mean, I think if we've talked a bit about meetings, so a recurring meeting, is there a recurring meeting you could remove right now? Because not only does today get the benefit of that, but future self gets the benefit of that. And so I I'd love people to be thinking about what are some things they could be doing or stopping doing that their future self is gonna go, that's glorious. And it can be anything from, as I said, meetings to you know what, I'm gonna red brick sugar from my diet because I know my future self will thank me for that. So think of something, and and I I always think about this. What could I do this afternoon that my tomorrow self will be really thrilled that I did because it just made tomorrow morning so much better.

Speaker 2: 47:25

I absolutely love that. And I think the mantra is absolutely let's red brick it. What can we red brick? I'm definitely gonna go. Actually, I'm for sure. My first action is tidying up my desk and saying to Jules, what can we red brick? Uh so also share with us, reach out to us and let us know what you have decided to red brick to remove to create those efficiencies, space, and even just sometimes that feeling of peace and lying in a hammock. Donna, where can people follow you? I'm gonna put all the links in the show notes, but uh, you know, any other um obviously you're gonna Google Red Brick Thinking and or I'll put the link in the show notes. Where else can people find you and all the messages?

Speaker: 48:02

I'm a shameless self-promoter. You really can't miss me, frankly, on all the major platforms. I'm mostly on LinkedIn and a little bit on Insta. You'll get me at DonnaMcGeorge.com. My books are for sale at all the retailers online and uh, you know, bricks and mortar. Um, so watch out for it. You can pre-order it now. Uh the day of recording this, the pre-order is still on for about another 10 days or so uh before it will then uh be being sent out. So yeah, little luck.

Speaker 2: 48:32

You'll be able to get a copy of it. And um also I did mention your Chat GPT revolution book in the previous episode. So there you go. Just come to Donna and Nikki for all of your business, business and life needs. Or maybe not all need, not all your life needs, actually. But have an amazing day, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to seeing you next week.